Ok. Listen up. I’ve only grazed the top of this debate via this site, so I’m probably only working with 5% of the information, but just the existence of this debate points to the possibility that, hmmm, perhaps those having this debate aren’t married.
A loss of story-telling tension?
Marriage is its own tension.
Having Parker married does not mean a story-telling dead-end. It means a progression. And here, I think, is where most people on the ‘boo-marriage’ side of the debate need to get their heads out of the their collective, fairy-tale-ending asses. Perhaps being so used to the “got-married-and-lived-happily-ever-after” endings from childhood, it’s difficult to see a way around that to actual life, actual relationships. If Parker shows us how to grow up, how about also using Parker to show how to maintain and fight for a real, human relationship, given that half of all marriages end in divorce? That wouldn be a good role model, I believe.
Sandman was a nothing. Doc Oc was a kid with an erector set. The green goblin can suck it.
All these guys are way easier to deal with than the reality that marriage, or any long-lasting relationship, takes work. WORK. It will be the hardest and most rewarding battle of most people’s lives. I think often we get deluded by media that love is something that we just blissfully fall into, that if we haven’t found it, we just need to keep looking for that ‘right person.’ The reality of the situation is that it takes work and commitment to build and kindle that love, it takes work and commitment to maintain that love and respect.
Take Parker out of marriage solely because it “too hard” (waah) to tell stories that way and I say all you’re left with is a steroid-ed Archie comic.
Here’s the problem: people read comics to “escape reality.” Yes, this is very general, but then again, the majority of comics is watching men in tights kill things with super powers. Most do not want to think about “ordinary” problems, they want to see a super hero kick the shit out of a super villain and save the world. They read comics to escape their marriage, not to be reminded that their marriage is failing. Escapist fantasy mirror real life can be a killjoy for a lot of people….which is why I don’t read superhero comics.
i don’t agree with you john. i think that you can make an argument that some people read comics (even superhero comics) to escape. but even if this is true (and i find it to be a stretch — the comics i read and that you read and that ben and mike and pretty much everyone i know reads are read because they are good. because they tell interesting, engaging stories,), it doesn’t matter much.
your second point about “most not wanting to think about the ‘real world’” is a leap and a stretch again. people actually want to read all types of comics and i don’t buy for one second that the only reason superheroes are the dominant genre is because people want to escape.
history is behind superhero comics; for better or worse, it has become the convention. but it also thrives because, as the link above stated, it can absorb many, many other genres in addition to being a superhero comic.
we are the demographic for comic books now — in fact, you might even be a little young. and, with this older demo, people ask for better stories and demand situations they can actually relate to in some sense. this is the reason the marriage undo is so awful — it doesn’t really matter if you are pro- or anti-, everyone agrees that the story being told is an awful awful band-aid. i haven’t read a single thing that says ‘this story is genius.’
and i think that is what really has people pissed. you’re going to undo 20 years of character development in one shitty storyline? fine. but treat the thing with some respect and dignity. as opposed to having the devil wander in for no reason and wave his hands some.
and you are missing some excellent comics if you don’t read superhero comics — esp if you think they are nothing but absurd fights. for superhero fights turned up to 11, check out morrison’s jla. or look at ellis’ planetary for some fun references and deconstructions. morrison’s animal man and doom patrol are amazing takes on the genre. and i know you like 100 bullets — check out bendis’ daredevil (and brubaker, who has followed bendis on the title). a couple of the storylines are weak, but the complete package is pretty amazing.
there are others too, those are the ones that spring immediately to mind.
Wait a sec. I just re-read your post below (2 pieces…). If I’m reading that right and Spidey saves Aunt May, then the devil gets to marry MJ? Is that right? Or just that he wants Spidey to get divorced? Because, dude, if you’d whore your hot wife out to hell to save your 137 year old aunt, you might want to do a cost::benefit analysis.
no, the devil erases the memory of their marriage from everyone’s minds. except maybe peter. though that would be even worse, as he would just be more mopey than ever. so yeah, i think it gets erased completely.
whee!
and yeah — wiping out the entire memory of your happiness with your s.o., past, present and future to keep your old aunt alive…questionable.
Really? Wiping the mind of all memory of happiness with an S.O? What a coool and totally original concept. You know what? They should totally make a movie about a guy who goes and gets his mind erased of all memories of his ex. And it should star some big-name hollywood type that you wouldn’t usually put in a movie like that. Say, maybe a comedian. You know, like Jim Carrey…. Oh, and opposite him should be some really famous actress, but, you know, maybe someone who hasn’t done much lately. Hey, and we’ll color her hair to make her look new and hip (but she’ll still be reassuringly familiar! Perfect!)
I could so fucking work in Hollywood. Genius. Pure fucking genius.
Ok. Listen up. I’ve only grazed the top of this debate via this site, so I’m probably only working with 5% of the information, but just the existence of this debate points to the possibility that, hmmm, perhaps those having this debate aren’t married.
A loss of story-telling tension?
Marriage is its own tension.
Having Parker married does not mean a story-telling dead-end. It means a progression. And here, I think, is where most people on the ‘boo-marriage’ side of the debate need to get their heads out of the their collective, fairy-tale-ending asses. Perhaps being so used to the “got-married-and-lived-happily-ever-after” endings from childhood, it’s difficult to see a way around that to actual life, actual relationships. If Parker shows us how to grow up, how about also using Parker to show how to maintain and fight for a real, human relationship, given that half of all marriages end in divorce? That wouldn be a good role model, I believe.
Sandman was a nothing. Doc Oc was a kid with an erector set. The green goblin can suck it.
All these guys are way easier to deal with than the reality that marriage, or any long-lasting relationship, takes work. WORK. It will be the hardest and most rewarding battle of most people’s lives. I think often we get deluded by media that love is something that we just blissfully fall into, that if we haven’t found it, we just need to keep looking for that ‘right person.’ The reality of the situation is that it takes work and commitment to build and kindle that love, it takes work and commitment to maintain that love and respect.
Take Parker out of marriage solely because it “too hard” (waah) to tell stories that way and I say all you’re left with is a steroid-ed Archie comic.
ray :: dec 03 2007 :: 2:38 pm
i completely agree with you, which is why i am so annoyed at the whole thing.
“oh, this is tooooough…i know — let’s have the devil show up and explain it way, so we can go back to being lazy storytellers!”
tripp :: dec 03 2007 :: 3:16 pm
Here’s the problem: people read comics to “escape reality.” Yes, this is very general, but then again, the majority of comics is watching men in tights kill things with super powers. Most do not want to think about “ordinary” problems, they want to see a super hero kick the shit out of a super villain and save the world. They read comics to escape their marriage, not to be reminded that their marriage is failing. Escapist fantasy mirror real life can be a killjoy for a lot of people….which is why I don’t read superhero comics.
john :: dec 04 2007 :: 2:08 am
i don’t agree with you john. i think that you can make an argument that some people read comics (even superhero comics) to escape. but even if this is true (and i find it to be a stretch — the comics i read and that you read and that ben and mike and pretty much everyone i know reads are read because they are good. because they tell interesting, engaging stories,), it doesn’t matter much.
your second point about “most not wanting to think about the ‘real world’” is a leap and a stretch again. people actually want to read all types of comics and i don’t buy for one second that the only reason superheroes are the dominant genre is because people want to escape.
history is behind superhero comics; for better or worse, it has become the convention. but it also thrives because, as the link above stated, it can absorb many, many other genres in addition to being a superhero comic.
we are the demographic for comic books now — in fact, you might even be a little young. and, with this older demo, people ask for better stories and demand situations they can actually relate to in some sense. this is the reason the marriage undo is so awful — it doesn’t really matter if you are pro- or anti-, everyone agrees that the story being told is an awful awful band-aid. i haven’t read a single thing that says ‘this story is genius.’
and i think that is what really has people pissed. you’re going to undo 20 years of character development in one shitty storyline? fine. but treat the thing with some respect and dignity. as opposed to having the devil wander in for no reason and wave his hands some.
and you are missing some excellent comics if you don’t read superhero comics — esp if you think they are nothing but absurd fights. for superhero fights turned up to 11, check out morrison’s jla. or look at ellis’ planetary for some fun references and deconstructions. morrison’s animal man and doom patrol are amazing takes on the genre. and i know you like 100 bullets — check out bendis’ daredevil (and brubaker, who has followed bendis on the title). a couple of the storylines are weak, but the complete package is pretty amazing.
there are others too, those are the ones that spring immediately to mind.
tripp :: dec 04 2007 :: 10:33 am
Wait a sec. I just re-read your post below (2 pieces…). If I’m reading that right and Spidey saves Aunt May, then the devil gets to marry MJ? Is that right? Or just that he wants Spidey to get divorced? Because, dude, if you’d whore your hot wife out to hell to save your 137 year old aunt, you might want to do a cost::benefit analysis.
ray :: dec 04 2007 :: 3:02 pm
no, the devil erases the memory of their marriage from everyone’s minds. except maybe peter. though that would be even worse, as he would just be more mopey than ever. so yeah, i think it gets erased completely.
whee!
and yeah — wiping out the entire memory of your happiness with your s.o., past, present and future to keep your old aunt alive…questionable.
tripp :: dec 04 2007 :: 3:18 pm
Really? Wiping the mind of all memory of happiness with an S.O? What a coool and totally original concept. You know what? They should totally make a movie about a guy who goes and gets his mind erased of all memories of his ex. And it should star some big-name hollywood type that you wouldn’t usually put in a movie like that. Say, maybe a comedian. You know, like Jim Carrey…. Oh, and opposite him should be some really famous actress, but, you know, maybe someone who hasn’t done much lately. Hey, and we’ll color her hair to make her look new and hip (but she’ll still be reassuringly familiar! Perfect!)
I could so fucking work in Hollywood. Genius. Pure fucking genius.
ray :: dec 04 2007 :: 8:40 pm